307 How to Make Your Dreams of Owning a Coffee Shop Come True | Ryan Castelez
Ryan Castelez
Drink Maker, Author & Entrepreneur
Ryan Castelez is the Founder and Creative Director of Discourse Coffee and The Counter Day Bar in Milwaukee, WI.
Ryan is also (among MANY other things) a Drink Maker, an Author, a very Visionary Entrepreneur, a forward-thinking mixologist and a barista!
I met Ryan Castelez at a retreat in Park City, Utah that I attended in July 2023, for adventurous entrepreneurs. Thanks to our mutual friend Brandon Fong (host of the Beyond Curious Podcast) for introducing us, and bringing us together for 3 days of magic!
In this episode, I sit down with Ryan to hear about HOW he turned his dream of opening a coffee shop into a reality. It wasn't easy, but he started small and today he is running a coffee and mixology empire!
In this episode, we discuss...
Where he got the initial idea to start Discourse (way back in 2017) and the crazy unassuming location that he picked for his first shop!
His views on coffee and running a coffee shop (Hint! It is SO much more than just a commodity product to the Discourse Team. It's about poetry, nostalgia, storytelling, etc.)
Ryan shares some of the first steps he took to bring the idea to life
His previous experience as an entrepreneur (or lack thereof!) and which qualifications and skillets he leveraged that prepared him for the wild journey ahead as as 23 year old passionate new business owner!
The marketing strategies he relied on in the early days, having ZERO budget for advertising!
His philosophy regarding pushing his customers outside of their comfort zone and nudging them to try new concoctions!
The way Ryan thinks and operates as as seasoned entrepreneur, today
How’s it been now that he's leading and empowering a team to run the business!
To connect with Ryan:
Access the transcript for this episode:
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You're listening to the visionary life podcast. I'm your host, Kelsey Reidl.
Each week, I'll bring you conversations with the most visionary humans on this earth, in hopes that you'll be able to absorb their wisdom, avoid their failures and feel less alone on the roller coaster ride that is entrepreneurship.
This season, I'll be chatting with creative thinkers, masterful marketers, brick and mortar shop owners, brand builders and people just like you who have a story to share or a vision that inspires. If I can share one quick secret with you before we get into the episode. It's that we all have a little bit of visionary inside of us, you know, that spark that nudges us to pursue our full potential in this lifetime.
But perhaps somewhere along the line, it got covered up. I'm here to tell you that it's never too late to explore that inner voice and access the brilliance deep down inside of you. It's in you. It's in all of us. Let's dive in. Hey, visionaries. Welcome back to another episode, this might be one of my favorite episodes I've ever recorded. Because the enthusiasm is high. The energy is on point. And I am interviewing a drink maker, a coffee cocktail author, a very smart entrepreneur. And his name is Ryan Castile. As I met Ryan, when I randomly flew to Utah for a retreat for visionary entrepreneurs. I didn't know who was going to be there. But shout out to my friend Brandon Fong who organized it. And he curated 12, or 14 Incredible humans in this mansion in Park City, Utah. And we hung out and we adventured. And we talked about our visions, and how we want to change the world. And it was pretty epic. And late on the first night, Ryan walks through the door, and he is full of energy.
And throughout the weekend, what unfolded for us was that he is this visionary drink maker. And his drinks have actually been enjoyed across the country from New York City to Seattle. And he has written this book called The New Art of coffee from morning cup to caffeine cocktail. And what was so inspiring about Ryan is that he literally took what you knew about coffee, flipped it on its head, and challenged you to think outside of the box about the way in which we experience coffee, the way in which we dine out and what we see and taste and textures. And the littlest things like what glass something is served in? And what temperature and what is the little dusting on top? And what's the coaster underneath? And what's the lighting like when you drink this cocktail? Oh, his level of delivery is inspiring. And, you know, over the course of the three days, it was almost like his passion for coffee and cocktail making was infectious. Because all of us left with this new appreciation and this new vision for how we wanted to choose our dining experiences. And I just am so fascinated because this was the first time I got to hear his full story about how he actually launched his very first coffee shop called discourse and the challenges he faced as a young 20 Something who really didn't have much business opening a shop but deciding I'm going to do this. I'm going to work through any of the barriers and objections that I have.
Being inside of a mall not knowing what I'm doing. Will people appreciate how crazy these drinks are? Or will they just want to go back to Dunkin Donuts and get a basic freaking coffee for $1. So it's really cool to hear about Ryan's evolution. He opened his first coffee shop in Door County. Now they are in Milwaukee. So if you're ever in the areas, go check out discourse coffee. And today Ryan is not simply behind the counter making drinks. He's actually empowering his team. To think outside of the box. They launched four new drinks every single month. He's training baristas, and bartenders all over the world on the aspects of coffee and Cocktail Service. And he's teaching managers how to become better leaders. He's consulting coffee shops and bars and restaurants, how to actually fine tune their concepts and start with a vision because that's what Ryan did. And he talks about that in today's episode that the vision was so clear, he didn't know how he was going to achieve it. No clue. But when it's there, you just make it At work, you put money on the line, you put time and energy on the line. And the rest is history. So in July 2017, he opened up his very first coffee shop discourse. And since then he has been featured on TV. He had a television program in Wisconsin foodie. He's been in print magazines. Like I said, he has his brand new. Well, I guess it's not so new anymore. Well kinda have actually his book, The New Art of coffee, and he tells you where to get that at the end. But it is widely distributed. And I mean, just to give you some context, Ryan was making drinks for us mocktails at this retreat, and he was mixing in a pine needle infusion that he found on his hike and he was using plum pits to flavor our drinks. And then he was serving them out of carved out squashes. It was wack you guys. Like I was laying in bed last night just thinking. You know, here I am hosting the visionary life podcast. The true visionary is Ryan Castile is because he dreams on a whole other scale. And I pulled out my phone and I texted him and I just said,
Thank you for pushing me to realize that I was dreaming small and my vision isn't big enough. And the way in which you're taking liquid storytelling and making it an industry is just so badass. So I could go on and on. But I think what we'll do is get straight into today's episode, if you want to find Ryan and his work. He's on LinkedIn, Ryan cast allez discourse, dot coffee. Or you could just search his name into Google. So that's it. Enjoy the episode. And I will see you guys on the other side. Hey, visionary, I want to quickly interrupt this episode to ask you if you've been curious what it's like to work with a private business and marketing coach. If you're a business owner, and you feel like your marketing plan is all over the place, you haven't figured out your search engine optimization or your SEO strategy, you have no idea what your social media marketing plan is, and you are not doing so well on the self Express content front. I call these the marketing trio. It's the three S's SEO, social media self Express content. And by dialing in all three of these pillars, you too can get more visible, generate more income and increase your lead generation where you're actually turning your followers into paid clients. And you're constantly bringing new people in at the top of the funnel. If you're not familiar with my work, I am a private business and marketing coach. And I have spent the last 13 years working in the marketing industry, many of those years doing consulting with clients like you who want to finally get more visible and get in front of their dream clients. So when we work together, you have me for four months, as your marketing partner, I'm going to do a full audit of your business, put you on a private project management software with me. And then based on your innate skill sets based on your strength, based on where you are curious and where your dream clients are paying attention. We're going to build out a custom marketing strategy, we're going to track it, we're going to optimize it. And by the end of the four months, you have a plan that works and you're seeing results. It's truly incredible. Christina crook just landed a $100,000 consulting contract after implementing just one of my marketing strategies. Emily Fraser signed multiple new clients in one day after just one month of working with me. And now she is having consistent five figure months. And Natasha, she started leveraging her email list in December, and 30 days later in January, she pulled in $25,000 from one single email that we created. So these results are possible for you too. But don't sign up yet. Just had to Kelsey rydell.com. And check out how we can work together learn all about it.
Make sure you feel informed. And if you'd like to book a discovery call with me, just fill out the application on my website, we can get on the phone and see if it's a good fit for you. So anyways, I don't want to interrupt this episode anymore. I cannot wait to work with you to support you and getting you more visible. And let's get back into the show. Ryan, welcome to the visionary life Podcast. I'm super excited to sit down with you today. And although we only spent a few short days together, you really inspired me to take drink making cocktail making coffee sipping the art of storytelling around food and beverage so much more seriously. And I'm really excited to share your enthusiasm and your passion with our listeners. So first of all, thank you for being here today.Thank you so much, Kelsey. It's an honor to be here and I really appreciate did that, you know, all of these things are things we do every day anyways. So a huge part of what I love to talk to our guests about is if you're going to drink coffee and cocktails anyways, why not be mindful? Why not be in a place of openness and a pH of I'm going to really experience this thing and take it for everything that it is. And so that's a huge part of our work. You know, it says, getting people to be more excited about the things that they are consuming every day anyways. And how can we shape a more beautiful tradition with that in your life,
that gave me the best visual because I was thinking like, there are really two opposite ends of the spectrum in consuming food and beverage, you could do it completely passively. You could have your head down and your phone just literally like shoving chicken wings in your mouth and not thinking about the plate and the experience and who designed it and where it came from.
There's the whole other end of the spectrum, which is people who they go out to experience the magic of someone like yourself, who's put intention and thought and who's connected with the farmers and who's concocted something that's meant to be an experience not like chug your coffee, and go, I'm curious, what were some of the things that got you interested in the art of drink making and creating experiences for people? How did you get into this line of work?Super good question. I was like very much like an olive garden. Texas Roadhouse is the fanciest meals in the world guy. until like, sophomore junior year of college, you know, it's like, I thought like, oh, man, that cinnamon honey butter at Texas Roadhouse does not get better than that. Yeah, and really, when I started learning that food was this really beautiful, expressive, crazy thing was junior college, I was in relationship with a girl in New York and her mom was a huge foodie and love to cook and her dad was a bibliophile, and loved wine. And I got really, really, really, really deep into the culture through them, of them exposing me to these people who will say thoughtful about the things that were going on the plate. And it was really the first time that I had ever been exposed to restaurants of a caliber, you know, above this kind of traditional understanding of going out to eat, you know, places where there was an enormous amount of attention being placed behind each element on the plate, what is the plate, you know, what's the table, the plate is on, right? All of these details have been thought about. And it was the first time that I had really ever been exposed to that level of conscientiousness, in food and drinks. Fast forward a few years, and I'm living into a county and I had been an opera singer, my whole life, and a musician and a storyteller. And in that medium, and I started watching a show called Chef's Table and I was up there, I was living alone, it was a window into a county population, 600 people median age, probably 65. And I'm managing a team of people older than me. Just feeling very isolated, and kind of like confused and like, Okay, what, what, where do I want to go what I want to do, I know that I have this love for storytelling, and I hadn't really identified that as a core love yet. I just saw it kind of as the stuff for music and for clothes and, and I started watching a show called Chef's Table just as like a like a winter dashboard. He said things like, I gotta pull the time. Got a projector, I'm gonna put this up on my wall and what TV and the first episode I watched was the chef Dominique Crenn. And my mind was absolutely blown. All of them my apartment, watching this episode of this woman who engaged in this practice, which she called poetic cuisine, and home menu was a poem. So every course was a line in this poem, and the experience at Atelier Crenn was walking you through this 14 line poem, you know, except you were eating and drinking each line of that poem. And by the time I got to the end of this episode, I was just flabbergasted. I mean, my job was just on the floor. I was I had no idea that people did this.
But there was there was a community of people who went to this extent of intentionality to create food and drink experiences, and my mind was completely numbed to this to this unbelievable conception. And so I've been Chef's Table I've probably watched that whole series of the seasons, probably six times now, and just try to soak up as much of that energy and that inspiration as I could. And that was really my first exposure to really storytelling to food and drink and, and the next chapter for us was okay, now how do we do this? You know, how do we take this and translate it? I thought about opening a restaurant I realized I really can cook But I love this pesto and I love to coffee and and so that was really kind of the beginnings of the discourse story is how do we take these practices that have been put into us by chefs like Dominique Crenn and Glen Achatz and Massimo Betula and and translate that into an every day democratized coffee experience? And can that be done? Should it be done? How is it done, has really taken over the last seven years of my life?Hmm, so cool. And, you know, there's a couple of things I want to double tap on there. First, I think it's really interesting that by watching Chef's Table like you really were expanded as to what's possible, right? And whether that's the people we hang out with, maybe you don't have people in your life that are truly allowing you to express yourself and it's turning on Netflix, maybe it's the podcast you listen to. But I think there's so many clues for what we're meant to do in life just by following our own joy. Because I'm sure there are people who watch Chef's Table, and they don't see the storytelling, they don't see somebody who's like, wow, that is really interesting what this chef has created. But here you are watching it going, Oh, my God, this is like the blend of everything that I didn't even know was possible. Yes, in building a career. So I love that that inspired you. I'm curious, as you're watching this show, are you thinking, I'm going to become an entrepreneur and I know how to open a business? Or were you like, I don't really know why I feel like I'm about to jump into this world of entrepreneurship. Like, were you skilled in running businesses? Or was this going to be a brand new venture for you
a little bit about, you know, I feel like a lot of the entrepreneurs that I've met in my life were like, absolutely fucking crazy from both. There's just a vibe. And there's an inclination inside of you where, you know, usually from a relatively young age and my conversations with entrepreneurs, that you are not meant to work a traditional job or within a traditional framework. There is some sort of innate understanding internally that there was something else out there for you. And I had that from a very young age. You know, my first ever quote, unquote, Job was I ran a recording studio out of my parents basement after it flooded, and I probably recorded 30 or 40 different musicians, for them walkie Elio, for about two years. And all my buddies were carvers, and I was trying to run this little recording studio is, you know, 1617 year old kid recording your 34 year olds coming down and playing screamo albums in my mom's basement, it's kind of always been something that's been in me is that is this knowledge that I am here to bring unique and engaging experiences to the world, I am here to create things that didn't exist before. How to actually put that into a structure that is a sustainable business model for a grown adult and more. So now with my current company, 15 Grown adults, you know, is a totally different thing, right? And I don't think anybody at any age is ever really prepared with that knowledge, regardless of whether or not you went to business school or your dad went to business school. Like there's, there's so much learning that goes on, on the job in entrepreneurship about how is it actually done.
And I think that a lot of people, the reason that they are stopped from putting beautiful things into the world is that they think about it too much. And they think about all of the little things that they don't know how to do. And they let that stand in their way of doing the thing that they do know how to do. And so something that I found to be extremely helpful for me is focus on the beginning, on how do I do the thing that I know how to do super, super, super, super well? And how do I stabilize all of the things that maybe I'm not as comfortable with? So that I can at least be sustainable for myself in the short term, right? And then once you feel it's obtainable, then you think about okay, how do I level this up? How do I bring one more person into this fold? And then how do I bring two more people into this fold. And then eventually, you've created systems for yourself where you have a dozen plus people 100 plus people, 1000 plus people and in the size of your enterprise, where you feel really comfortable running a business at that scale. But you know, if you'd asked six years ago, if I felt comfortable running a business with three locations and 15 people, I would have said, absolutely Fuck no, no way in hell. I knew I wanted to get there. But I knew that the first step for me was just putting something into the wall and hoping that it comes out, you know, and so for me, it's been a lot of learning on the job and making mistakes, realizing those mistakes, learning from them and moving forward. And, and I think in entrepreneurship, you know, you have to be super, super, super comfortable with failing forward, because you will fail many, many, many, many times in these little little ways. And to me, it's never truly failure until you stop trying. Like when you stop applying those lessons and stop working towards betterment then you fail. You know, but until then all of the stumbling blocks all of the life lessons, all of the learnings, all of the oh, man, I shouldn't have done that that way, it's all little steps towards having this beautiful vision come into the world and, and becoming very comfortable with that process of understanding where you went wrong and finding, and then applying that and moving forward, I think is quintessential to the journey. So I was not prepared at the beginning, I had a God and that I wanted to follow.
But I feel like over time, I've really sank into that understanding of what does it mean to run a business instead of to on a vision. And, and those are two different things. And I think a lot of us get too intimidated with the business part, that we don't even put the vision into place. And I found if you put the vision into place, you'll figure out the business stuff, it might take some time, you know, as long as you have a plan on the front end, where you're like, Okay, I think this will work your which is what we had, we had Shadi projections that I think we threw out after six months. But you know, as long as you have that plan that you like, Okay, I am pretty sure this can work and you work for it relentlessly. It works out more times than it doesn't. Well, I want totalk about your vision a little bit. And as you know, the name of this podcast is visionary life. And you kind of nailed it. When you said that entrepreneurs, especially visionary entrepreneurs, we always feel like we're misfits in a defined box. And we had all these ideas. And we're always like, looking at the world thinking I could do this better. I want to start this. And I know for you, you have described discourse, coffee, as funky and out there and surprising and weird and fun. And you have this combo of words of liquid storytelling that you've really brought into your work. So as you are in the early stages, and starting to vision, how you're gonna do a coffee shop, or a space differently. Were you ever worried that maybe this wouldn't take off? Because there's a lot of coffee shops out there, but most are just trying to serve you a commodity. And it's transactional. Right? And then maybe there's some that have cool music, good vibes. But you kind of pushed the boundary a little bit at least, compared to what I've seen. Yeah, in my time going about Toronto, and Ontario, and Canada, looking at all the coffee shops here. So I'm wondering, like, did you know this was gonna work? Did people ever doubt in your vision? And if so, how did you continue forward?
Yes, absolutely. To the doubt, and I still don't know if it's gonna work calcium seven years in, right? Like,
I feel that
every day, you wake up and you're like, oh, man, I hope people come today. And then I hope people come tomorrow to and then I hope you have them the next day. Because if they don't, like, gotta fire 15 people, but like, like, every day, right? Yeah, that's just like, part of being an owner. I think and, and I honestly don't know if that ever goes away, no matter how big your company is. So you even if you have a million employees, you know, I don't know if the if that person is the CEO of Apple, it's like, oh, man, what do people stop buying iPhone small that would stop, huh? Yeah, yeah, there was, I think, almost always this like, inclination of me, and I really hope that this works, you know, and, and every level up that we've done every new location, every new concept, right, it's, it's always a, you're throwing a dart at the wall and hoping that it sticks and so on.
And so I've never really known, you know, when we first started that first year, there was so much doubt. And a huge part of it was we were entering into this culture, this third wave coffee culture, you know, which was very defined by regimented, accepted professional routine. This is the way that we make good coffee, this is the level of extraction we should be seeing. This is the time in and time out that we should be getting into a properly extracted v 60. Right. It was a very tightly regimented culture, and the people who were being celebrated with the people who are doing the best job of translating the work of a roaster, to a drinker. And that is still kind of the be all end all of coffee. So here comes this dude, in the middle of the woods, he has four months of experience in coffee, and he's taking these beautiful coffees, and to many people walking them up, like taking this beautiful coffee, and throwing syrup and bitters and essences, and shaking it and soaking it in a coupe glass. And, and so there were a lot of people who came in, and we're just like, Man, I really have no conception of what you're doing here. And I don't understand it. Like, I just want a cup of Ethiopia. Like, I want it to be juicy.
And I want to leave, you know, like, and over the years, what we found was, you know, for every one person maybe who felt that way, we could find two or three people who came in and they would say, Hi, I've never seen anything like this. I'm so happy that I know that this exists now. And keep going. You know, and those two Probably the people that you kind of just have to choose to listen to, right? The thing that I always tell people in entrepreneurship, or in any vision driven enterprise is, you have to want your vision so fucking bad that you cannot possibly imagine a world without your vision in it. And that is the way that you will succeed. Because you will come against so many stumbling blocks, you will come against so many naysayers, you will come against people who do not understand your vision. And for me, in my own conception of being a visionary, right? If I if I don't have at least one person be like, dude, that vision sounds fucking stupid. And I am not dreaming big enough, right? Like, it is easy for people to understand immediately. What is the point of being a visionary? Like, to me, the point of being a visionary is to put new, fundamentally new experiences into the world. But and so that is so much of what I tried to do with my work, does that make it easy to be a business owner? No, because every time that you put something into the world, you're having to retrain people on the fact that this is a thing that exists, and this is what it cost, and this is what it's worth, and you're you're assembling a culture, from the ground. But to me, that's also the beauty in it, that's the value in it, right? Like, when you have an experience that discourse, it's a fundamentally different thing that what you can get out elsewhere.
And to me, that's so special, because when somebody comes in, and they resonate with what we do, like, that's how people they see that vision, they relate to that vision, and they, they feel seen, and they feel heard, and they feel maybe for the first time, like, down like I've been waiting for this, but as like I've been trying to find this thing, and I haven't been able to and here it is in front of me and, and I love this and and how much more valuable is that then it was another cup of coffee. You know, like I was just like the other shop that I had, it was great cup of coffee, but then I get this cup of coffee just about anyone. That to me is so much more valuable. And I will gladly gladly take the sleepless nights take the you know, this is never going to work. Take the you're stupid for doing this to beautiful coffee for those 1234 moments with people where we fundamentally reshape the idea of what's possible and coffee. I think it's a quintessential part of of being somebody who is putting unique visions into the world. But I have never I don't think that a visionary who's like, Yeah, I knew from day one, it was gonna work and it worked. Like that's just not how it happens. Yeah, at least in my experience.Absolutely. And I love that you share that because I know that for you. Like you said, one person would come in and say this is weird. I just want my $1 coffee cup from Dunkin Donuts. But you then get a few people coming in saying, Whoa, I don't know what this is. But it's remarkable. And it sounds like those were the people who saw so much value in what you guys were doing, that it was them who actually spawned more word of mouth marketing. And I know that you said at one point that you actually didn't do any advertising for the first few years of zoo dolphin. And you instead we're getting word of mouth. And I'm assuming there was no strategy per se behind word of mouth marketing. But by you guys being different, maybe a little polarizing you being the visionary you are and doing radically crazy things. And we'll have to get into some of the unique combos that you guys would put out there. But that is enough to drive word of mouth marketing and for people to leave your shop and say, That was totally fucked up. I don't know what I do. But it was amazing. And then they send 10 of their friends. So I'm curious what like, was that how you kind of grew the shot from the ground up? Was it because you were creating remarkable experiences that people couldn't help but talk about?
I think that's the two biggest things for me that I've that I find in my business, right is one, create something that people want to talk about. That's that's huge. And that's why we call it the shop this quest. Yeah, we wanted to start a new conversation around coffee. And for us, you know, when you when you look at the coffee business model, right, like I and I, knowing more about business now than I did. Seven years ago, we started this whole thing I think about a vision or supposition of what we wanted to do and I'm like, man, we will fucking nuts and my dad was stupid for giving me money with it because it makes zero offset. Coffee is a location and convenience business. We were located in the lower level of a derelict shopping plaza in a town of 600 people were the average age was 65. You know, I mean, there was nothing about this. That made sense. Zero. We had zero street visibility. We had zero street signage, though there was zero things about this, that made sense. But we had a vision, and we had an idea for what we wanted to bring to the world and actually looking at it Now, you know, in retrospect, all of that play to our advantage, right? Because now you have customers coming in, and they're saying, none of this makes sense. And I love it. You know, like, like, this is a coffee shop that feels like a speakeasy in a courtyard in the middle of nowhere. Why is this happening? How is this happening? Who are you? And why are you doing it here? You know, like all of this, it added to the mystique, but it added to the story, you know, they weren't like, oh, yeah, it's on the main drag of SR Bay, you know, when they tell the story of the space that like, oh, yeah, you have to get out of your car. And it's a little bit of an effort to find it. But then you find it and you walk in, and you're transported back to this like speakeasy basement from the 80s. And then the drink. So super modern and right. So we provide a story for them to tell we write the story. And then we just allow them to scale it. So the first thing is, that has to be something that people want to talk about. The second thing is, and once people come in, because they've heard about it, the product has to be good. It's it is those two things, really, you know, it's number one, get people there to an interesting story. And number two, when they come, give them a great experience, you know, and that's kind of always been our ethos. And to me, it is as simple as that, you know, create something that people want to talk about. And then when they come, don't let them down, live up to that expectation. And I think following those two tenants, you can do crazy things just about anywhere. You know, I've had clients who, you know, now, I'm in a bad location, it's like, okay, if you're in a bad location, that means that you have to think twice as hard about how you're going to get people here, it doesn't mean it's impossible, actually, I think in a lot of ways that can play to your benefit. You know, you can play to that exclusivity, you can play to that destination, you can play to that journey. But it takes that that extra little vision of how do we make this so exceptional in whatever way you want it to be, whether that's the community, or the drinks, or the event programming that you offer, or the coffee club that you have every month, right?
Like how do we how do we create something so exceptional that people want to make the trip. And so that's, that's been a huge part of what I think our strategy, if you can call it that from day one, you know, is making experience people want to talk about and then when somebody comes in, because they had it talked about to them, don't let them down. And then they talked to somebody else about it. And then they talked to somebody else about it. And you know, we grew in a literal space and Door County from just me and my original partner, Chris, to, you know, five or six people every summer who would come up and have to work this workshop. And it was an incredible that, although to be fair to all of us, you know, how do you build something from nothing, and an old laundry room or shopping complex in sister Bay,there's so much to unpack there, I feel like this really reminds me of a few different marketing lessons that I've learned, like, number one, no amount of marketing can sell a bad product, or it can sell it once, but people won't come back. So I know you take so much pride in like serving a product that won't let people down and that they won't forget, because they've never had it before. So I think that's so important. And then the other thing I was thinking about too, is what you said about even if you have a shitty location, or you feel like you have a lot of excuses as to why people aren't finding you, you just have to get more experimental, and shift your mindset to say, You know what, like, people do want to come here, or they will find us because I'll figure out a way to reach them. And we'll figure out a way to make this part of our story. So like, you have to flip your mindset if you feel like you have factors working against you in business growth, which we all do, right? Like, there's always gonna be something that's like, well, I don't have a big email list or Well, my website's still being built. Okay, work around it figure out, you still get out in front of your people, and still encourage them to shop your products. So I love that it's like a No BS approach. Like, yeah, we're in a mall.
Yes. I mean, you just kind of go like, that's the thing. For me. It's like, I think in entrepreneurship, the only way forward is being action oriented. You know, I think that we can be thinkers to an extent, and that's great. It is great to be a thinker, but in order to be an entrepreneur, and I think the difference between a dreamer and an entrepreneur, is that a dreamer is purely thinking oriented. And an entrepreneur is action oriented. And if you get to a place of being action oriented, it makes life so much easier. You know, you sign the lease, right? Like, and that was, it was like, we're just gonna sign the lease. Like, I could think about this all day and overthink myself out of this space, right? But if I just sign the lease, what that does for me is it makes me have to make it happen. But now Now I have this commitment. I gotta do it. I gotta figure it out. And you will. Right. And that's the thing that I think is so remarkable about humanity. And I know you feel this way. I know everybody who we were on the retreat with and feels this way, right? There's There is nothing inherently special about me, that makes me more capable of doing what I'm doing than anybody else on Earth. The only thing that is making me the person doing what I'm doing is that I'm actually doing it, right. And so I truly believe for anybody, anybody, if you have a dream, if you have a vision, if you have something that you're looking to achieve, don't start, you know what, however big that stone is, just start on that path. You are amazing people are amazing, right, and we have a capacity to rise to whatever occasion we need to provide it that we need to, you know, as as long as we give ourselves permission to not rise to the occasion, to not fulfill our potential to not create our vision, we will not because it is far, far easier to not, as soon as we put ourselves in a position where there is no turning back, right. And then there's this great parable of the creature army who had always, when they sailed off to a new battle, they would burn the boat once they landed, because they knew that if there was an option for retreat, it would be far harder for them to process victory. And so for me, I do that same method, like for me, I'm a burn the boats guy, if there's an opportunity in front of me, I'm going to pursue it fully. And I'm going to put myself in a position where I have to make it work. And the human capacity to make it work when you need to make it work is startling. The first couple of times for me that I launched concepts, and I put myself in that position, I started to learn of my own potential, you know, I was never a wildly self competent guy, there's still some things in my life that I'm unconfident about. But I've gone over this incredible professional competence, just by doing the damn thing enough times to realize that I will figure it out, you put me in a situation where I have my back against the wall, I'm gonna figure out how to slip, right, that's just the reality of what I am capable of as a human. And I believe that about myself only because I have put myself in enough situations where I've had to do that, you know, and I think all of us, all of us are capable of that. So I think really, it's It's believing in that capacity to, to do great and beautiful things, and putting yourself in a situation where you have to, and then figuring it out, you know, and that's kind of the entrepreneurship journey. For me, it's put yourself in the position where you have to figure it out, and you will figure it out. We have an amazing tendency as humans to just jump and make that leap successful.
Yeah, and I think the word action is such a differentiator between people who advance Yeah, they might fail every, you know, second, third, fifth time they take action, but we still move forward. And like you said earlier, you fail forward, whereas the person who like goes into a dark cave, tries to get everything meticulously, right before they've even communicated their idea before they've even taken the first step. Yes. And they come out with a cave, and they're like, Okay, I'm ready. But nobody's listening, they have no feedback, they have no research, and then it doesn't take off. And they've spent all this time trying to be perfect, but they've missed the interactive element of like, to, like, put ideas out into the world and see if people catch them. And you need to be out in the world looking at, okay, what idea Am I getting from my life today? Yes, or I thought I wanted to open a shop in this mall. But I walked in, and I got a bad vibe. So it's like, Oh, honey visit interact with the world. And yeah, that involves failure. It's part of being a business owner. But that also helps you to learn what you do want to do and to build confidence because you took the action. Maybe it worked out, maybe it didn't, but you learned a lot from it. And then you take the next action. So I think that's so 1,000%
Can I make a weird analogy? Yes, go for it. I think about this stuff a lot as like, almost like raising a kid, right? And if you make the decision as a parent that you want to have a baby, okay, like, you're gonna have a baby, and you might want to know the gender and then you're going to, like paint the womb, and, you know, buy some clothes for the first six months, right? But there was no point in buying that baby's three year old outfits, and, you know, picking out those school districts, right, like, like it gets, there was so many things that could change between that first moment of birth, and that three year old, and that six year old, and that 12 year old and that 18 year old, right? And that is the same for me as as a business, right? Like, you have the child and then that child in a way forms a relationship with you, right? And that relationship is actually what comes to define the clothes that you buy at age three, and the school that they go to at age six, like maybe they express a lot of creativity, right? And so you want to put them into a more creative school than you thought. And I find that with my Business very much over the years that I've cultivated a relationship with my business, right. And in that relationship, there is a give and take. There are times when I say, Hey, mister business, this course I want you to wear this outfit to school today. And there are times where this Course tells me and the people who come to us and the staff and the people who write about us, and they come to me and they say, Hey, this is what we are getting, from this experience. This is what we want to see more from this experience. And you adapt, and you play that relationship between you and the business. So trying to plot everything out at the beginning is like trying to dictate what your six year old is going to wear before he's born. It doesn't actually make any sense. But really, what you need to do is have the kid and let him be a kid. And then when he's six years old, you're gonna figure out okay, what do you want to wear buddy? You know, like what feels the most comfortable for you? Where do you want to go to school, right? Like, and that, to me is the same as as building a company, it's you put the vision into the world, you take that action, and then you community, you have this communion with it, where it's informing you what it wants to be and what it needs to be and where it needs to be. And you're implementing it and where you want to shape it and where you want to take it. And it's that relationship. To me, that's been the most vital, the amount of pivots and directions and language changes and vision changes and visual changes that we've had over the last seven years with this course. And the more that I learn about the field, the more that it it really dials in this idea of okay, what are we doing? And, and what is my mission, you know, when you're doing something that's visionary, a lot of times people you don't even know, you're like, I don't even really know how to describe this thing. You know, it's like, we do a thing, it's kind of in this place, you know, and over time, I think it really in that relationship starts to crystallize. So that's, that's like a, it's a weird analogy, but it's something to be that's like, helped me to kind of think about, okay, when I'm starting a new business, I don't have to know everything right away. And that's fine. You know, we just have to take the steps towards getting now. And once this little baby, you know, feels comfortable and incompetent, and we're sending them off to school, you know, like that we can make sure that he's making the right plans and and that he's in the right school district. And you know that people have a good time seeing him and hanging out with him, right. But first, I need to put it into the wall before people can interact with it.
Well, as you're telling this story about business, and how it's about cultivating a relationship with your business, and iterating on version one and version 100, I'm actually thinking about you as a drink maker. And as someone who pushes the boundary on putting concoctions together, it's like, imagine you just sat back and wrote out like this wild recipe in combination. And every single time it just worked out great the first time, and you didn't get feedback from sipping it for the first time, or you didn't test it with your team and then learn from, hey, this is a little bit too salty, or ooh, this flavor actually didn't go well. It's like, I don't know, when you're making a new drink. How many different versions sometimes does it take, in order for you to get that remarkable product that you're ready to serve? I'm assuming sometimes you get it on the first try. And it's like sometimes as entrepreneurs, we launch things and it just clicks or a piece of content goes viral. Other times, you're showing up, you're doing it day after day, you're training version one version 20 Version 30. Yeah. And then it's that consistency. And that commitment to our craft that eventually leads us to being like, this is remarkable. Now I'm ready to put it out into the world. But that came with a lot of iteration, and a lot of quote unquote, failure that you have to stick through and say, I can only go up from here, how do we optimize? How do we get better? How do we make this 1% improved from where it was yesterday?
1,000%. I mean, I definitely drinks that I've done that or picking 20 or 30 times, and then those drinks that I've done that have been two or three, you know, depending on usually the complexity of the drink. To me, what I part of what I'm passionate about with this course is is sharing the behind the scenes of the process of a creative, right, because so many people, when they experience the work of a creative, they experience the final product. And it's very rare that you actually see behind the scenes of okay, what all took place to get to this moment right here. You know, I always think about musicians and how they might record 40 tracks for the 10 that they put on the album right? And all of those tracks that ended up on the cutting room floor when you film a movie and you 30 hours of film that are being cut down to two hours of actual content in the film. But there was so much that is left on the wayside in the creative process. And for me as a drink maker. It's a lot you know, the we go through a lot of iterations and something that I encourage people to do anytime that they're out for food Drink is thinking about all of the facets of the experience. And it's a lot of times something that people just aren't aware to be thinking about. Like, it's not even a matter of consciousness that we think about these things. But if you're going to a great restaurant or a great bar, every single element of that experience has been curated for you. It's not just the drink, right? So when I'm dialing in a new drink, there is the liquid. Of course, the liquid has to taste good. Right? But then there's also how does the liquid look? How does the liquid is it carbonated? Is it rich? Is it heavy? Is it going to be served up on ice? What is that ice? Is it going to be served on a rose ice is gonna be shoved down a cube ISIS is going to be sitting on the sphere ice, is it going to be inside of the ice and the customer is going to have to break the ice to get to the cocktail? Is it going to be served in a coop? You know, am I going to double strain it? Am I going to add a foam on top? Am I going to put a coaster under the drink? Am I going to sue for the straw? Is it going to be a commons glass? Or do I want a little bit more weight to provide layering? You're all of these thoughts? Right? All auxiliary to the liquid itself, but have an enormous amount of impact on the way that you experience the drink? And then there's the back end of it. How do I menu this drink? How do I describe it to people? What ingredients? Am I calling out to people when I drop this drink on the table? What do I want them to taste boats? Can I put that in the aromatics. But all of this influences the way that you taste the way that you perceive? And if you have a restaurant the same thing, right? What is the cutlery? What does that look like? Feel like in the hand? What is the plate? Is it handmade? Is it Clintonville? There's a very different feeling from those things, right? And so all of these things, when you're out at a great food or drink establishment are being considered every single fuckin element from the lighting to the music to the service touches by and that, to me is what is so unbelievably beautiful about not only drink making, but hospitality. But is this idea that there is somebody out there with a team of people almost always a team of people because this shit takes a village. We're really thinking about this, you know, we're really thinking about from the moment you walk in this door. What is the feeling? How are you welcomed? When you sit at that table? How does the chair feel? How does the napkin feel? How is the silverware oriented? Do you have a charger? Is there a water glass already on the table? It's a light on the table is that light on or off? Do we do candles or fake or plants so but every single element of that experience has been curated for you in that moment to enjoy. And there is something to me, that is so unbelievably beautiful about that when you can sit back and truly appreciate that understanding that every single part of this has been thought about by someone and probably too much. But they probably went through like 50 Different napkins to alive on that one napkin that's at your table. And to you as a Dinah, that might be a totally irrelevant moment. You know, like, you might not even notice that that's a thing, you know, we'll get this amazing quote and we'll get it was fun of house manager of 11 Madison Park when they won best restaurant in the world and very much involved with Nomad and wrote an incredible book called unreasonable hospitality that everybody should read, whether or not you're in hospitality, it's an amazing book about how we can just be better people to one another. But one of the things he talks about in that book is when they opened Nomad in New York for the first time, they wanted it to feel like you were in basically the house of this nomadic traveling man, and you will kind of a guest in his home, right? And so they had this bookshelf, this band bookshelf full of old books, but they weren't just waiting about books, they actually went through and took the time and say, Okay, this man, this is his hobbies, from these hobbies, what are the books that he would have collected, and let's put those books on the shelf, and then then spill everything else around those hobbies, so that it all makes sense. So if you see a little globe in the corner, you can also look at that bookshelf and see we'll have atlases of Thailand and Vietnam, right. So it all makes sense together and one out of maybe every 10,000 People will notice this is not something that people are going to consciously perceive, often. But what will says Is he says, you know, perfection is a feeling by and you will even if you do not notice, consciously that all of these decisions have been made for you, you will notice subconsciously that every element of the experience that you are having feels deeply intentional. And that to me is so beautiful, and it's so indicative of what I love about hospitality, there is an extra bonus to a higher level of hospitality that just lights my soul up. And that to me is I think what is beautiful about the space of being a drink maker, or being a hospitality. terian is this ability to iterate to create beautiful things, and then to share them with people in a way that is deeply, deeply intentional and deeply, deeply intuitive. So you got to launch and you got to feel all of this out, you know, like how does it feel to be somebody providing that level of intentionality to people and sink into that feeling.
That's a good reminder to just be meticulous about our craft because that is what differentiates anyone from anyone, right? If you feel like you're swimming in a sea of all these competitors, maybe you just need to look around at your service delivery or your product delivery and say, Have I added that layer of intentionality that Ryan's talking about, which I know you do so, so well. And as we wrap up here, I know you do offer consulting. But on the other end, if people don't live in Milwaukee and can't come to discourse, you also have an amazing book called The New Art of coffee, where I feel like every concept you have shared today really shines through in the stories you share in the recipes, you've created the way that you're showcasing the art of coffee. So could you first of all, tell us a little bit about the book, and then where people can connect with you and find you if they're interested?
Absolutely. Quick Quote off that last point that you made, I heard a great quote recently, it's everything is more important than anything. And I love that quote, because it takes a couple times to hear it. But when you think about it, it's like, oh, yeah, like everything is more important than anything. And it's every single little detail that needs to have that level of refinement to really have that beautiful product that you can share with your guests. The book for me was this really crazy journey. It took about three years originally, I had intended to just put out a little manual for professional research who wanted to make drinks, the way that we make drinks, and who didn't feel like they had the resources to do so. And when I started, I got started up cookbooks and cocktail books. And so I wanted to create a book for coffee and tea drink makers, buy a coffee and tea drink maker. That was how do we make drinks creatively in this space. And so the book is three points. It starts with an introduction to coffee. This is no James Hoffman text. He is still the king of lighting encyclopedic information about coffee. This is an introduction, a primer. The second section is really about how we make drinks, the philosophies, the techniques, the technologies that we apply at the bar, to be able to do what we do and tell liquid stories. And then the third section of the book is 40 Such liquid stories, and the stories that inspired them, the ingredients, the recipes, and really, really beautiful photography by my dear friend, Kevin Miyazaki, who's a marquee based photographer and just absolutely incredible at what he does. They very fortunate to have him shoot the book. So we worked with a literary agency called indelible editions and ended up selling through into Rizzoli. And the book is now available globally, I believe so. William Sonoma here in the States is a stockist. I believe also, in all the locations around the world. Amazon, of course, many local booksellers will carry this book and it is distributed by Penguin Random House. So if you go to your bookstore, you know, almost every local bookstore has a relationship with Penguin. So you know, if it's not at your local bookstore, and you want it to be stop on and tell the local bookkeeper, hey, could you get this title for me, there's a very, very good chance that they can source it in. You can buy this on Amazon but I'm always somebody who's like a good local if you can, you know that local bookseller bring that book in and, and support the small business down the street. But it is a very widely available now. And I think something that can be inspirational to people even if you aren't looking to be professional police that you know, we really dialed this in for the home drink banker who wants to explore a little bit deeper, of intentional drink making in our own lives and designed to be extremely easy to use. So even if you're coming into it with zero experience, there are recipes that you feel like you can float into quite easily and start to build your confidence up until you're taking on the big boys with a you know a day of crap, like matrix offense and holy pair. And then you know, we got a lot of recipes in there to warm you up.
Amazing. We will link everything in the show notes to your website to your personal LinkedIn. Ryan, thank you so much for being on the show today. And we wish you all the best.
Of course, Kelsey, it's been a joy. Thank you so much for having
thanks for tuning in to this episode of visionary life. I love bringing you these conversations on a weekly basis. So it would mean so much to me. If you could help me out by rating and reviewing the show on either iTunes or Spotify. It just takes a second. And if you don't want to rate the show, you could also just take a screenshot of the episode and share it on your social media platform of choice tagging me at Kelsey Reidl. I'll catch you in the next episode.
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